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Need Advice On Buying A Diamond


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#21 mmath

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:45 AM

View Postdiamondsbylauren, on Monday, Jun 9 2008, 03:14 PM, said:

View Postmmath, on Monday, Jun 9 2008, 01:56 PM, said:

For a commodity (diamonds) this is a good value but they aren't going to give you a premium quality setting.

I'm sure there are a lot of online vendors that do high quality work. Again, I'm just sharing my experience. That ring is beautiful!

Thank you for the compliment on our rings!!

You mentioned the word "commodity"- and that is actually not true about diamonds.
Generally when we speak of commodities, they are fungible. For example, one barrel of crude oil =any other barrel of crude.
Each ounce of 24 karat gold is identical to the next one.
The same can NOT be said for diamonds.
One D Flawless 1.00 can be worth significantly more than another.

Diamonds aren't all that rare. Well cut diamonds are rarer than poorly cut diamonds, but neither is scarce. Semantically, you are right: a diamond is not a true commodity because it is not fungible; however, diamonds manifest themselves in the marketplace in essentially the same way. Drop shippers really have just created perfectly competitive exchanges that peddle diamonds similarly to a commodities exchange. This gives the consumer access to the best price competition and the greatest selection.

All the market power in the diamond industry rests in the parties that control the mines. The world's supply of diamond is controlled by a strong oligopoly. They choose the quantity that hits the market. Jewelers and middlemen (pardon the sexism) are a weak force in that equation. You are at the mercy of the suppliers and, by extension, so are your customers. In other words, any middleman who claims they have one of a kind inventory is either dishonest or delusional (unless they are doing their own cutting).

From my experience, a jeweler can add value to the process by offering expertise. I would gladly have paid someone a price premium to save me that 10 weeks it took me to get a good value. My time isn't worthless. I spun my wheels a lot before I gave up. For this to happen industry wide, my experience has convinced me that there needs to be a realignment of incentives in the industry (the same way CarMax is destroying the old way of selling cars).

Edited by mmath, 09 June 2008 - 11:46 AM.


#22 diamondsbylauren

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 12:03 PM

mmath-you are making statements as though they are fact- as a consumer, that's kind of misleading.
If you are in the diamond business, you;'d have a far more informed perspective.


AS much as the drop ship sites would like you to believe diamonds are a commodity they are not.
Having 20 companies listed the same 50,000 diamonds sure makes it look that way- but it's just not the truth.
Many of the best diamonds in any given size, shape or quality are purchased from cutters before they get to the drop ship sites- so in essence much of what you see listed are leftovers. In a large percentage of cases, the drop shipppers get stones that could not sell themselves visually to dealers- and the leftovers are worth less.

In terms of who controls the diamond market that is also far more complex.
In fact, retail sellers have a LOT to do with how prices react. If no one is buying something the prices go down.
Marquise diamonds used to command a premium over Pear shapes- but they got less popular, and the prices equalized- based solely on demand.

The statement below is surely accurate- you made it as a consumer, and it speaks of your experience buying your diamond.

Quote

From my experience, a jeweler can add value to the process by offering expertise. I would gladly have paid someone a price premium to save me that 10 weeks it took me to get a good value. My time isn't worthless.

But extrapolating global "facts" about the diamond business from such limited experience can be very misleading.

#23 jan

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 01:12 PM

Last year about this time my family and I took a trip to the Crater of Diamonds in Arkansas. We mined for 12 hours a day and 4 days straight and found nothing as far as a diamond is concerned. I was thinking at the time, anyone that thinks diamonds are a dime a dozen and not rare should come here and see how hard mining can be and how rare they really are. Two hundred and fifty tons of ore must be removed to find a pea sized diamond. I don't think we came anywhere close to that amount without machinery. :)
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#24 denverappraiser

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 06:30 PM

View Postmmath, on Monday, Jun 9 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

Diamonds aren't all that rare. Well cut diamonds are rarer than poorly cut diamonds, but neither is scarce. Semantically, you are right: a diamond is not a true commodity because it is not fungible; however, diamonds manifest themselves in the marketplace in essentially the same way. Drop shippers really have just created perfectly competitive exchanges that peddle diamonds similarly to a commodities exchange. This gives the consumer access to the best price competition and the greatest selection.

All the market power in the diamond industry rests in the parties that control the mines. The world's supply of diamond is controlled by a strong oligopoly. They choose the quantity that hits the market. Jewelers and middlemen (pardon the sexism) are a weak force in that equation. You are at the mercy of the suppliers and, by extension, so are your customers. In other words, any middleman who claims they have one of a kind inventory is either dishonest or delusional (unless they are doing their own cutting).

From my experience, a jeweler can add value to the process by offering expertise. I would gladly have paid someone a price premium to save me that 10 weeks it took me to get a good value. My time isn't worthless. I spun my wheels a lot before I gave up. For this to happen industry wide, my experience has convinced me that there needs to be a realignment of incentives in the industry (the same way CarMax is destroying the old way of selling cars).
One of the things that has widely spread is a set of appalling misinformation regarding DeBeers, the vast stockpiles of diamonds, the artificiality of the market, etc. High on the list of nonsense is ‘The Diamond Invention’ by Edward Epstein.

It’s an interesting combination of a history lesson and a vast conspiracy theory where DeBeers and their advertising agency have manipulated people into buying something quite expensive that they have no real need for in order to further their own nefarious profits. As far as it goes, this is correct. You can’t eat diamonds and there is a valid argument that no one really needs one. The problem, of course, is this applies to pretty much everything we buy. Who needs an ipod? Or a cell phone? Or a steak or lobster when a bowl of rice would do? What about theater tickets or international travel, scuba lessons, imported beer, more than 1 pair of shoes or 98% of the other ways we spend our money. Even the terribly poor seem to have an actual need to buy unnecessary things. To some extend these things can be attributed to modern advertising convincing us that we need these things but there really does seem to be an unspoken human need for this stuff.

Diamonds are colossally difficult to produce and they tend to come from what westerners would describe as fairly exotic places. It involves a terribly unusual set of tools and skills to fashion the rocks into the gems that you recognize as diamonds and in the end they are very cool little objects. Are they too expensive when compared to other things? Possibly, but I think probably not. The obscene profits that people seem to believe are in the diamond business don’t seem to be materializing and never really have. In this years Forbes’ list of the 500 richest people in the world, only two could be described as jewelers even in a stretch. Nicky Oppenheimer, CEO of DeBeers who presides over his grandfathers shrinking empire made the list at #173 and Beny Steinmetz at #296 who describes himself as a diamond manufacturer but who got rich dealing in Manhattan real estate more than African rocks. That’s the only two. Diamonds are a $55Billion dollar industry in the US alone, so where’s all that money going?

The problem is that diamonds are enormously labor intensive and wickedly competitive at every step. The players, including retail jewelers, aren't nearly as inefficient as you are suggesting. In case you didn’t notice, there are a lot more jewelers than there are, say, railroads or pharmaceutical companies. They spend the money on things like rent, advertising and employees, and those people spend the money on things like heat, printing and still more employees. Even the fairly efficient players like Blue Nile who you're calling 'perfectly competitive' aren’t exactly burning down the house. BN reported an 8% profit on sales in 2007.

There was just a big court case over the very issue of whether DeBeers was using their size and power to artificially inflate prices. The court ruled that they had and determined that diamonds were a whopping 4% higher than they would have been without their manipulations.

If you were one of the ‘injured parties’ who bought a diamond between 1994 and 2006, you can apply for you’re your share of the refund at https://diamondsclassaction.com/. You may see as much as several dozen dollars for your trouble.

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser, 09 June 2008 - 06:33 PM.

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#25 SAgosto

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 06:34 PM

View Postdenverappraiser, on Sunday, Jun 8 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

View PostSAgosto, on Sunday, Jun 8 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

Thank you.

Seems like the similiar typed GIA are more expensive probably because they are legit. :)

Bingo.

You learn fast grasshopper. :)

And just to nip it in the bud when you discuss this with someone pushing EGL or similar paper (and you should definitely do that, free Internet advice should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt) and they tell you that the problem is how insanely expensive GIA services are, [url="http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/31548/fees.cfm"]here's[/url] the GIA fee structure, straight from the horse's mouth.

Neil


Aside from the online vendors seem to favor EGL, the person I went through said they typically do GIA but absolutely loved this particular diamond even though it was EGL. It was a beautiful stone but I am sure I could do better so I turned it down.

View Postmmath, on Monday, Jun 9 2008, 10:41 AM, said:

The best way to get an idea of how much diamond you can get for your budget is to use the internet search engines. To get an idea of the right price, I looked at Amazon.com (very good diamond search engine), Blue Nile, Brilliance.com, and a couple of other sites. You are obviously intelligent enough to learn the parameters of a diamond. Learn them all: Cutlet, Girdle, Table, Depth, Crown, Symmetry, Polish, Pavilion Angle, Crown Angle. These criterion don't guarantee a diamond will scintillate but they get you a lot closer to the mark that taking someone else's word for it. There are plenty of internet resources that will give you some good rules of thumb for proportions. Ideal proportions are obviously not uniform from one shape to the next (e.g. a princess shape will have distinctly different cut parameters than a round brilliant).

I went to several jewelers and invested several hours researching and ended up buying from an online vendor. This only works if you have the luxury of being price elastic. If you need to get engaged next week you'll pay a lot more than if you have a couple of months to find the right stone. Educating myself, shopping, buying, altering, and finally getting the right ring took me about 10 weeks. I had a difficult time getting the setting right and burned about $75 sending stuff out to be remedied via registered mail. It was a lot of work. Now that I'm done with it, I am enormously pleased with the value I received (I also paid no sales tax which was a 5% discount right off the bat).

From my experience, retail jewelers want to sell you their inventory and they usually stock diamonds with good color/clarity ratings that they can sell cheap (because thats what uninformed consumers demand). I didn't feel like I was given "expert" advice. It was more like going to a car dealership. Most just did things like put an "G-SI1" next to a "F-VS2" and talk about why one was better than the other with no regard to certification or cut grade. In some cases, I felt like I knew more about cut than the sales personnel. Had I found a jeweler that could save me all that time for a 15%-20% markup it would have been well worth it to me. I didn't. I hope you do. Regardless, your ability to negotiate this purchase adeptly is going to be directly proportional to your knowledge. If you rely on others (particularly those with a conflict of interest), you are probably going to get suboptimal value.

I looked at round brilliants at the brilliance.com search engine and I think you are going to have to spend about $14k (maybe a a bit more) to get yourself a 1.5 ct diamond with great proportions. If you go to a retail outfit, expect to pay 20% more (which is well worth it if you don't have the time to invest in educating yourself thoroughly). For an intelligent person such as yourself, I think you can compensate yourself well by doing some reading and looking at some diamonds from internet vendors. You will notice that non-AGS/GIA certified diamonds tend to be much better "deals" (I had two jewelers say, "why pay for GIA or AGS when you can get the same thing for less"). Don't be fooled. If those jewelers could get a favorable grade from GIA or AGS they would do it in a heartbeat. The fact that they haven't done so should be a big red flag.

Some more advice on purchasing a setting: if you buy online, you aren't likely to get artisan craftsmanship. I ordered a split shank setting in platinum; a hard metal to work with in a complicated setting. It looked awful. I moved to a much simpler setting in 18k gold and got much better quality. Again, I had to educate myself about settings so that I knew what to look for and knew what to complain about. In hindsight, I wish I had just purchased the diamond and taken it to a local jeweler to have it set. You pay a premium but its so much less time consuming to correct. The mass customization model a la Dell doesn't translate to rings like it has for computers. If you do buy the setting online, keep it simple (which doesn't necessarily mean cheap or unattractive).

I know this is a lot to take in but I've put considerable effort into this and feel I should pay it forward. This site was a big help to me when I was going through the same process.

Thank you for this well-thought out post. I do have time. Like I said, it has to be perfect. I rarely take the first anything and I have the finances right now so I could do it right now so I am even more inclined to wait and find the exact one. What originally bothered me was I jumped right in and got excited and listened to the Rap Report and how the carat is going up and I should not wait "too long".

But, it's worth me figuring out and learning about it. I am glad I didn't take the 4Cs at face value because, to be honest, that's horrible advice which is basically the guidelines for buyers. For me, I do have a GIA buddy (how good, I am not sure but he won't lie to me) and I at least can get myself in the rough categories and then start to worry about the cut. I am starting to see what he told me: Stick to GIA/Get yourself in the 4 categories you want/Worry about the cut The other thing I am worried about is my ability ot distinguish what's good and bad. I think I can get it close and use this forum/my buddy to finalize it. I just don't have the EYE to see what's better.

#26 SAgosto

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 06:41 PM

Here's my game plan:

In the perfect world, I'd have this:
1.6CT+ or better
H or better
VS1 or better
Cut - Need to learn

I am using that as a guideline as that's what I have seen from that diamond and I thought it was beautiful. I assume it can only get better.

-Spend some time reading this forum and asking questions and learn up on cut
-Keep my eye out for online vendors with good repuations such as Blue Nile/Excel/Union/Abazias/etc.. and start to see what I can
afford in my price of $11-$13K (I sold my car for this purchase)
-Post up report and get advice from this forum and my buddy
-Use the 10 day or 30 day or whatever to have it evaluated by my buddy whom I trust

Please adjust if necessary. :)

#27 SAgosto

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 06:30 PM

Another question.

Is the Rap Report mostly used to define pricing? Is their a lot of mark up? I guess what I am wonder if that I find two very similiar diamonds, would/should they be similiarly priced?

#28 jan

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:45 AM

I wouldn't sell myself short if I were you. It really isn't rocket science. Lots of people don't think they can tell a good stone without an expert eye, but all the time in our store I will ask which stone is the brightest and I haven't had anyone so far that couldn't pick out the best one with their inexperienced eye. You can trust your eyes. You just can't pick one out without looking at anything but a piece of paper. And it is even better if you can compare several side by side.

Edited by jan, 12 June 2008 - 02:46 AM.

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#29 jan

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:53 AM

Rap is just a guide line for the trade. Most don't pay rap prices and stones are discounted from the rap price for a variety of reasons. Mostly the cut grade. Things like fluorescence, the quality of the clarity, the girdle the finish grade etc, etc. Also not all stones in the same grade are the same price. Some are better deals than others. Also not all stones are listed on the drop ship sites.
The markups are usually low in the US if dealing with online purchases. To get an online price with service, a great up grade policy in the future, someone that could even broker the stone for you if a need should arise in the future, would be optimum.


Or you can take your chances..... get it dropped ship...... keep returning and spending your money for shipping, get no service, no upgrade policy and possible get stuck in the future trying to get rid of it yourself for pennies on the dollar.
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#30 denverappraiser

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:21 AM

Rap is a trap. Rap is used by merchants to keep the pricing on their inventory current. As you can easily tell, superficially similar stone, meaning stones that appear in the same place on the Rap sheet can have drastically different pricing. This is largely due to difference in grading accuracy and cutting. Especially within the Internet marketplace, dealers are extremely competitive with one another but it’s actually easy to test this as well, at least with the dropshippers. You’ll find examples of the exact same stone being offered by several dealers on behalf of some unidentified 3rd party. It’s highly likely that all of the dealers are being offered the stone at the same cost so the difference will be in the dealers markup and whatever value added services they put on. It’s unusual to see this difference account for more than a few percent. Many, by the way, will match prices with their competitors on the exact same item.

A cutter will price a stone based on the merits of the stone and will quote this price to their dealers as a function of Rap. Not surprisingly, they would like to price things as high as they can while still actually making the sale (unfortunately for the cutters, asking for the big bucks is not the same as getting it). Some will be deeply discounted and some will sell at Rap or even at a premium. Some dealers specialize in stones that they can get at a deep discount and others specialize in stones that they can sell based on the premium attributes. NEVER will these two appear in the same stone. When Rap goes up (or down) over time, the dealers will raise or lower their prices accordingly so that when they finally make a sale they have appropriate funding to buy a replacement stone as well as a little bit left over for themselves. As a consumer, Rap is almost completely useless. You will be FAR better off using this or similar databases to fine actual offers of actual stones to use as a basis for comparison.

Neil
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#31 SAgosto

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:28 AM

View Postdenverappraiser, on Thursday, Jun 12 2008, 09:21 AM, said:

Rap is a trap. Rap is used by merchants to keep the pricing on their inventory current. As you can easily tell, superficially similar stone, meaning stones that appear in the same place on the Rap sheet can have drastically different pricing. This is largely due to difference in grading accuracy and cutting. Especially within the Internet marketplace, dealers are extremely competitive with one another but it’s actually easy to test this as well, at least with the dropshippers. You’ll find examples of the exact same stone being offered by several dealers on behalf of some unidentified 3rd party. It’s highly likely that all of the dealers are being offered the stone at the same cost so the difference will be in the dealers markup and whatever value added services they put on. It’s unusual to see this difference account for more than a few percent. Many, by the way, will match prices with their competitors on the exact same item.

A cutter will price a stone based on the merits of the stone and will quote this price to their dealers as a function of Rap. Not surprisingly, they would like to price things as high as they can while still actually making the sale (unfortunately for the cutters, asking for the big bucks is not the same as getting it). Some will be deeply discounted and some will sell at Rap or even at a premium. Some dealers specialize in stones that they can get at a deep discount and others specialize in stones that they can sell based on the premium attributes. NEVER will these two appear in the same stone. When Rap goes up (or down) over time, the dealers will raise or lower their prices accordingly so that when they finally make a sale they have appropriate funding to buy a replacement stone as well as a little bit left over for themselves. As a consumer, Rap is almost completely useless. You will be FAR better off using this or similar databases to fine actual offers of actual stones to use as a basis for comparison.

Neil

Thanks for the advice. He was using the RAP strictly for pricing.

View Postjan, on Thursday, Jun 12 2008, 06:45 AM, said:

I wouldn't sell myself short if I were you. It really isn't rocket science. Lots of people don't think they can tell a good stone without an expert eye, but all the time in our store I will ask which stone is the brightest and I haven't had anyone so far that couldn't pick out the best one with their inexperienced eye. You can trust your eyes. You just can't pick one out without looking at anything but a piece of paper. And it is even better if you can compare several side by side.

That's fair. If I just bought that stone, my EGL stone might be I/S1 instead of H/VS1 and while it may look beautiful to me, I would be sick if I knew I put that on my girlfriend's finger even if that's just what the reality is (regardless of the hyped up EGL cert).

I'd know behind the covers it was flawed.

#32 SAgosto

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 03:16 PM

Found another diamond for the same vendor. A search on Abazia for GIA stones J/VS2/Good to Very Good cut are close in the $96XX price I got for this stone. Unfortunately, I doubt I will like the J but I thought I'd put it out there. I also realize the cut isn't as requested by others but curious anyhow.

Only inclusions appear to be some in the middle of the table.

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Edited by SAgosto, 14 June 2008 - 07:32 PM.


#33 Adylon

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 06:46 PM

View Postdiamondsbylauren, on Monday, Jun 9 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

Thank you for the compliment on our rings!!

You mentioned the word "commodity"- and that is actually not true about diamonds.
Generally when we speak of commodities, they are fungible. For example, one barrel of crude oil =any other barrel of crude.
Each ounce of 24 karat gold is identical to the next one.
The same can NOT be said for diamonds.
One D Flawless 1.00 can be worth significantly more than another.


Hi David,

As you know, I think diamonds are a commodity, but a complex one. I think all merchandise can be commoditized --- to an extent... that's the key phrase. You have to ask yourself how much error is tolerable? The more time you spend scrutinizing a diamond, the better deal and the better diamond you're going to get. The more you treat it like a commodity, the less likely it will be exactly what you hope/expect it to be. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, they treat it as a commodity to a point but want reassurance as well it's a nice stone. But there will always be the clueless guy that just wants the cheapest 1 carat SI1/G, and there will always be the highly discriminating guy that wants the perfect AGS-000 stone with certain pavillion and crown angles, and compares it to 5 other stones in the mall of the same color and clarity to be sure it's accurately graded. I guess the question you need to ask yourself is how much error are you willing to tolerate in the specifications of your diamond and how much time are you willing to spend in getting both the best deal and the best stone? It's easy to get one or the other, the combination is most difficult especially when you look at something purely as a commodity.

I'm sure you can ask someone who grows tea leaves, a corn farmer, a metalurgical engineer in a steel mill, etc, and they will tell you the same thing, that there are many variations in their commodites that do effect price. The bottom line is, how much do people really care? If they don't care about the small variations in the product, then it's commodity status is secure, and this is the case unfortunately for many diamond shoppers.

Yosef
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#34 diamondsbylauren

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 11:42 AM

View PostAdylon, on Saturday, Jun 14 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

The bottom line is, how much do people really care? If they don't care about the small variations in the product, then it's commodity status is secure, and this is the case unfortunately for many diamond shoppers.

Yosef

I doubt that anyone reading this falls into that category.
Nor would ANY educated diamond buyer

#35 Enchanted Diamond

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 01:34 PM

The NYC diamond district is a good place to buy if you're close to it because the jewelers and dealers are competitive when they offer sales, free or deals on insurance, and diamonds below the Rapaport list prices. The largest volume of diamonds get traded in the NYC 47th st diamond district, so the closer you are to the wholesalers the closer you are to the deals. The 1.6ct H VS1 diamond you checked out was offered to you for $11k... this is actually a good deal considering the rapnet price on this diamond. The markup is 6% of the cost for the wholesaler.
When you go to the diamond district and you want to weed out the nonsense from the serious, experienced diamond dealers... ask if the person showing you the diamond is a member of the DDC or Diamond Dealer's Club. Most of the people on 47th st are not diamond dealers but jewelers.
If your interested in negotiating a better price for the diamond, and you want to see the stones we offer, e-mail info@enchanteddiamond.com or visit 9 West 47th St. You can call (212) 730-7877 and make an appointment in advance to view our stones which we assure will be top quality GIA certified, we offer free insurance on every purchase over $1000 (covers loss and theft for full value of diamond, even if the value increases), and we've been in the industry for 40+ years with dozens of educated, satisfied customers.

#36 SAgosto

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 05:43 AM

View PostEnchanted Diamond, on Monday, Jun 16 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

The NYC diamond district is a good place to buy if you're close to it because the jewelers and dealers are competitive when they offer sales, free or deals on insurance, and diamonds below the Rapaport list prices. The largest volume of diamonds get traded in the NYC 47th st diamond district, so the closer you are to the wholesalers the closer you are to the deals. The 1.6ct H VS1 diamond you checked out was offered to you for $11k... this is actually a good deal considering the rapnet price on this diamond. The markup is 6% of the cost for the wholesaler.
When you go to the diamond district and you want to weed out the nonsense from the serious, experienced diamond dealers... ask if the person showing you the diamond is a member of the DDC or Diamond Dealer's Club. Most of the people on 47th st are not diamond dealers but jewelers.
If your interested in negotiating a better price for the diamond, and you want to see the stones we offer, e-mail info@enchanteddiamond.com or visit 9 West 47th St. You can call (212) 730-7877 and make an appointment in advance to view our stones which we assure will be top quality GIA certified, we offer free insurance on every purchase over $1000 (covers loss and theft for full value of diamond, even if the value increases), and we've been in the industry for 40+ years with dozens of educated, satisfied customers.

PM sent.

Thank you.