I am buying a diamond from a jeweler who is a friend of a friend. I trust him, so that is not an issue. He has presented me with two stones:
1) 1.24 Carat, G, SI1, Depth 62.8%, Table 61%, Polish and Symmetry both Very Good, no culet or floresence. GIA Certified.
Price: $7,200
2) 1.73 Carat, H, SI2, Depth 62.6%, Table 57%. EGL "Pre-certified" - will get the official EGL paperwork in a couple of weeks.
Price: $7,800
My question is this: I have read almost all of you site (which is excellent!!), and according to your price database (and Blue Nile's prices), the first stone is about average price, but the second stone is well under the average price that both you and Blue Nile say it should be. I have seen both stones, and both are beautiful. I guess I am just a bit skeptical about the second stone. Can I trust the EGL certification? Is the lack of GIA certification decreasing the price that much (I would pay Blue Nile about $9,300 for the same stone). Like I said, I trust the jeweler, I guess I'm just looking for someone to tell me either "Beware" or "You got one of those rare great deals".
Thanks for your help.
Todd
EGL
Started by
tkahn
, Aug 29 2000 08:39 AM
9 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Guest_*
Guest_Guest_*
-
- Guests
Posted 29 August 2000 - 10:46 AM
Tkahn,
Sorry, but I'm going to have to say BEWARE. Unfortunately, I've heard too many stories of "overgrading" by EGL. My point is that the stone may not truly be an "H" color or SI2 clarity.
If you really like the stone, I would recommend having an independent appraiser look at it or ask your friend how much it would cost for a "re-grade" by GIA. If the price is as good as you say it is I'd be skeptical. Is it truly "eye-clean"? Have you looked at it in different lighting and seen no inclusions? What about the color? Have you put it next to the GIA stone (which is a G) against a white background or color tray? If it is a loose stone, you should not see much difference in color between the two. If you do, it may be an indication that the color grade is lower than represented by EGL.
Nothing against your friend, but my advice would be beware. One final note is that just knowing the depth and table of the stone is not enough to determine how well-cut the stone is. Even if the color and clarity are as advertised, if the stone is poorly cut, that will affect the price tremendously. If your friend has a Sarin Machine, he can give you all of the cut details (ie. pavilion depth, crown height, crown angle). Once you have these, the experts can tell you how well-cut the stone is. Hope this helps.
Allen
Sorry, but I'm going to have to say BEWARE. Unfortunately, I've heard too many stories of "overgrading" by EGL. My point is that the stone may not truly be an "H" color or SI2 clarity.
If you really like the stone, I would recommend having an independent appraiser look at it or ask your friend how much it would cost for a "re-grade" by GIA. If the price is as good as you say it is I'd be skeptical. Is it truly "eye-clean"? Have you looked at it in different lighting and seen no inclusions? What about the color? Have you put it next to the GIA stone (which is a G) against a white background or color tray? If it is a loose stone, you should not see much difference in color between the two. If you do, it may be an indication that the color grade is lower than represented by EGL.
Nothing against your friend, but my advice would be beware. One final note is that just knowing the depth and table of the stone is not enough to determine how well-cut the stone is. Even if the color and clarity are as advertised, if the stone is poorly cut, that will affect the price tremendously. If your friend has a Sarin Machine, he can give you all of the cut details (ie. pavilion depth, crown height, crown angle). Once you have these, the experts can tell you how well-cut the stone is. Hope this helps.
Allen
#3
tkahn
-
- Member
-
- 6 posts
Bronze
Posted 29 August 2000 - 04:52 PM
Allen:
Thanks for your advice. I'm looking at the stone again next week. I'll be sure to do exactly what you say. My friend did say that he is confident that GIA would rate it the same (again, he's not pushing this stone on me, and he's cutting his margin as well), and he would be happy to send it to GIA for me, but I'm trying to avoid paying $500 for a piece of paper that may tell me what I can find out for myself by confirming EGL's ratings.
In terms of pavilion depth, crown height, and crown angle, could you please tell me what to look for in terms of a range? I know the stone looks good, and that the table and depth percentage are in that "ideal" range, but I'm obviously concerned if I'm missing some relevant information. I'm sure I'll get this information from my friend (and the EGL certificate which will be faxed to me this week), so I want to make sure that all of the measurements are truly outstanding.
Also, the polish has been rated very good and the symmetry good.
You said to be skeptical about the color and clarity rating, but what about the measurements? Can I assume that EGL is accurate here?
I really appreciate your help. I realize you don't know me from a hole in the wall, but you seem very knowledgeable and I want to be absolutley sure about this purchase. Thanks!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your advice. I'm looking at the stone again next week. I'll be sure to do exactly what you say. My friend did say that he is confident that GIA would rate it the same (again, he's not pushing this stone on me, and he's cutting his margin as well), and he would be happy to send it to GIA for me, but I'm trying to avoid paying $500 for a piece of paper that may tell me what I can find out for myself by confirming EGL's ratings.
In terms of pavilion depth, crown height, and crown angle, could you please tell me what to look for in terms of a range? I know the stone looks good, and that the table and depth percentage are in that "ideal" range, but I'm obviously concerned if I'm missing some relevant information. I'm sure I'll get this information from my friend (and the EGL certificate which will be faxed to me this week), so I want to make sure that all of the measurements are truly outstanding.
Also, the polish has been rated very good and the symmetry good.
You said to be skeptical about the color and clarity rating, but what about the measurements? Can I assume that EGL is accurate here?
I really appreciate your help. I realize you don't know me from a hole in the wall, but you seem very knowledgeable and I want to be absolutley sure about this purchase. Thanks!!!!!!!!!
#4
adodge
-
- Member
-
- 44 posts
Opal
Posted 30 August 2000 - 02:31 AM
Tkahn,
(My previous post I hadn't logged in, so I came up unregistered, but its still me!).
Couple things. Check out www.niceice.com. Go to their discussion of "cut". They list the parameters of cut grades based on AGS standards. AGS is really the only reputable lab right now that gives a cut grade on their reports. The niceice site gives info on AGS 0 - 2 grades. AGS 0 is considered ideal. As an idea, the parameters of AGS 0 are Table - 52.4-57.5%
Pavilion Depth - 42.2-43.8
Crown Angle - 33.7-35.8
A couple of things a didn't notice the first time on the second stone (1.73ct stone). Does the second stone have fluorescence? Did you say the second stone has a "good" symmetry rating? Keep in mind that just because the stone falls outside "ideal" parameters doesn't mean its not a good stone. Its all personal preference. If you've looked at many stones and have seen what an "ideal cut" stone looks like next to an average cut, then you need to make the decision if the price difference is worth it.
The whole point is to make sure you are paying for what you are getting. If you think you are paying for an ideal cut, you need to make sure that's what it is. It still seems apparent that there is something about the larger stone that is keeping the price down. It may be a combination of things, such as an average cut, fluroescence, etc. As long as you know these things, you can make an informed decision.
As far as the measurements, your friend should be able to verify them for you in the store.
Once you get the rest of the details, come back and let us know so we can help if you have more questions.
Allen
(My previous post I hadn't logged in, so I came up unregistered, but its still me!).
Couple things. Check out www.niceice.com. Go to their discussion of "cut". They list the parameters of cut grades based on AGS standards. AGS is really the only reputable lab right now that gives a cut grade on their reports. The niceice site gives info on AGS 0 - 2 grades. AGS 0 is considered ideal. As an idea, the parameters of AGS 0 are Table - 52.4-57.5%
Pavilion Depth - 42.2-43.8
Crown Angle - 33.7-35.8
A couple of things a didn't notice the first time on the second stone (1.73ct stone). Does the second stone have fluorescence? Did you say the second stone has a "good" symmetry rating? Keep in mind that just because the stone falls outside "ideal" parameters doesn't mean its not a good stone. Its all personal preference. If you've looked at many stones and have seen what an "ideal cut" stone looks like next to an average cut, then you need to make the decision if the price difference is worth it.
The whole point is to make sure you are paying for what you are getting. If you think you are paying for an ideal cut, you need to make sure that's what it is. It still seems apparent that there is something about the larger stone that is keeping the price down. It may be a combination of things, such as an average cut, fluroescence, etc. As long as you know these things, you can make an informed decision.
As far as the measurements, your friend should be able to verify them for you in the store.
Once you get the rest of the details, come back and let us know so we can help if you have more questions.
Allen
#5
tkahn
-
- Member
-
- 6 posts
Bronze
Posted 30 August 2000 - 03:31 AM
Allen:
Thanks again. There is no florescence on the 1.73 stone, and it does have a "good" symmetry rating (with very good polish). I haven't seen that many stones in my life, but I know that this one looks "alive." I'll be sure to check out all of the measurmeents. The reasons that the stone is less expensive, according to my friend, is that he bought it for a good price and is passing the savings on to me. The stone is listed in his store at $8,700. Again, I know he's not trying to push anything on me so I don't think there's any reason not to trust him.
I am definitely looking forward to getting all of the measurements and looking at the stone again next week. Assuming the measurements are close to the ideal level, is it worth getting a GIA cert, or can I then rely on an appraisal to verify the EGL information?
Again, thanks for your help.
Todd
Thanks again. There is no florescence on the 1.73 stone, and it does have a "good" symmetry rating (with very good polish). I haven't seen that many stones in my life, but I know that this one looks "alive." I'll be sure to check out all of the measurmeents. The reasons that the stone is less expensive, according to my friend, is that he bought it for a good price and is passing the savings on to me. The stone is listed in his store at $8,700. Again, I know he's not trying to push anything on me so I don't think there's any reason not to trust him.
I am definitely looking forward to getting all of the measurements and looking at the stone again next week. Assuming the measurements are close to the ideal level, is it worth getting a GIA cert, or can I then rely on an appraisal to verify the EGL information?
Again, thanks for your help.
Todd
#6
tkahn
-
- Member
-
- 6 posts
Bronze
Posted 30 August 2000 - 04:39 AM
OK, one more time:
I've got almost all the specs of the 1.73 stone-
Table - 57%
Overall Depth - 62.6%
Pavilion Depth - 43.8%
Crown Height - 15.3
Medium to slightly thick Girdle
No Flouresence
No Culet
Very Good Polish
Good Symmetry
I don't have the crown angle at this point, but I'll get it.
I went to niceice.com, and read their tutorial on cut. So far, every numerical measurment has fallen within the "AGS 0". Can the crown angle be so bad as to significantly diminish the value of the stone?
I am not a perfectionist - I don't need the "AGS-000" rating, but I do want to make sure I know what I'm getting.
Any thoughts? Thanks again.
Todd
I've got almost all the specs of the 1.73 stone-
Table - 57%
Overall Depth - 62.6%
Pavilion Depth - 43.8%
Crown Height - 15.3
Medium to slightly thick Girdle
No Flouresence
No Culet
Very Good Polish
Good Symmetry
I don't have the crown angle at this point, but I'll get it.
I went to niceice.com, and read their tutorial on cut. So far, every numerical measurment has fallen within the "AGS 0". Can the crown angle be so bad as to significantly diminish the value of the stone?
I am not a perfectionist - I don't need the "AGS-000" rating, but I do want to make sure I know what I'm getting.
Any thoughts? Thanks again.
Todd
#7
adodge
-
- Member
-
- 44 posts
Opal
Posted 30 August 2000 - 09:38 AM
Tkahn,
To be honest, everything does look good about the specifics on the stone. The measurements look really good. As far as sending it to GIA for a re-grade, I still think its prudent, but if you know of an independent appraiser near you that is truly independent, you may send it to them instead first, before you buy. You mentioned in one of your posts if its worth $500 for the GIA cert. It should not cost anywhere near that. I would think maybe $100-$150, which is still a substantial amount.
At this point, I would look at the stone again, and do the tests we've talked about. Put the stone next to the GIA certed "G" color against a white background. If you can see a fair amount of additional color in the EGL stone, then it probably isn't an "H" color. If you don't, then maybe its right on. Also, again on the clarity, make sure its eye-clean. If its truly an SI2, it should be.
It sure sounds like you may have found a great stone at a great price. The only final caution I would have is regarding the symmetry. Look at the diamond up close and with a loupe. Make sure it appears that all of the facets line up well with each other.
Allen
To be honest, everything does look good about the specifics on the stone. The measurements look really good. As far as sending it to GIA for a re-grade, I still think its prudent, but if you know of an independent appraiser near you that is truly independent, you may send it to them instead first, before you buy. You mentioned in one of your posts if its worth $500 for the GIA cert. It should not cost anywhere near that. I would think maybe $100-$150, which is still a substantial amount.
At this point, I would look at the stone again, and do the tests we've talked about. Put the stone next to the GIA certed "G" color against a white background. If you can see a fair amount of additional color in the EGL stone, then it probably isn't an "H" color. If you don't, then maybe its right on. Also, again on the clarity, make sure its eye-clean. If its truly an SI2, it should be.
It sure sounds like you may have found a great stone at a great price. The only final caution I would have is regarding the symmetry. Look at the diamond up close and with a loupe. Make sure it appears that all of the facets line up well with each other.
Allen
#8
tkahn
-
- Member
-
- 6 posts
Bronze
Posted 30 August 2000 - 11:09 AM
Allen:
OK, I think I'm through driving myself nuts. I've made a decision. I'm going to look at the stone, and tell my friend no offense but I want a cert from a reputable lab - everything I read and hear about EGL leads me to this decision. I don't even want to trust my own eyes because if I like the stone I'll be biased myself, and I'm far from a trained gemologist!
So, if I get a recertification, do I get a GIA of an AGS cert? AGS, according to most of what I read (particularly on diamondtalk.com, which has a lot of the same message posters as this site) is just as good, and maybe even better than GIA because of all of the cut information AGS gives on the certificate. Also, how long does it take to get a certification? I'm looking to "pop the question" in October. I'm looking at the stone on Tuesday, so I could have it sent out next week.
Thanks again!!!!!!!
Todd
OK, I think I'm through driving myself nuts. I've made a decision. I'm going to look at the stone, and tell my friend no offense but I want a cert from a reputable lab - everything I read and hear about EGL leads me to this decision. I don't even want to trust my own eyes because if I like the stone I'll be biased myself, and I'm far from a trained gemologist!
So, if I get a recertification, do I get a GIA of an AGS cert? AGS, according to most of what I read (particularly on diamondtalk.com, which has a lot of the same message posters as this site) is just as good, and maybe even better than GIA because of all of the cut information AGS gives on the certificate. Also, how long does it take to get a certification? I'm looking to "pop the question" in October. I'm looking at the stone on Tuesday, so I could have it sent out next week.
Thanks again!!!!!!!
Todd
#9
adodge
-
- Member
-
- 44 posts
Opal
Posted 30 August 2000 - 11:22 AM
Todd,
Sounds like a good plan! Opinions are mixed on GIA vs. AGS. I would say either an AGS report alone, or a GIA report combined with the Sarin report would work (the Sarin report will give you the same info as the AGS report). I believe there are some diamondtalk threads that talk about the turn-around time. If memory serves, GIA may be somewhat longer. I would expect a few weeks. You may ask your jeweler about the timing. Good luck!!!
Allen
Sounds like a good plan! Opinions are mixed on GIA vs. AGS. I would say either an AGS report alone, or a GIA report combined with the Sarin report would work (the Sarin report will give you the same info as the AGS report). I believe there are some diamondtalk threads that talk about the turn-around time. If memory serves, GIA may be somewhat longer. I would expect a few weeks. You may ask your jeweler about the timing. Good luck!!!
Allen
#10
tkahn
-
- Member
-
- 6 posts
Bronze
Posted 30 August 2000 - 12:07 PM
Thanks again Allen! I'll keep you posted.
Todd
Todd
