33 replies to this topic

[Jay Gatsby]

denverappraiser, on Wednesday, Mar 1 2006, 11:06 AM, said:

Jay,

I don't understand your position.

Do you disagree with the statement that there is more to buying a diamond than what appears on a lab grading report?

Are you disagreeing that there are labs that produce reports that deliberately omit information that customers would find useful? (Including GIA)

Are you disagreeing that there are labs that deliberately report grades that are inaccurate or misleading?

Are you disagreeing that there are dealers who use those reports as sales tools to promote stones that otherwise would be difficult to sell?

Are you disagreeing that stones that have problems beyond the description on the report are less desirable than otherwise similar stones that have no such issues?

Surely not, but how do you suggest that consumers navigate around these topics or do you count them as minor enough issues that they shouldn't be of concern?

Neil

Boy, lots of questions.

There's lots of information, misinformation and shady characters in every business. An educated consumer is a smart consumer. Couple an educated consumer with a merchant that has a solid no-questions-asked return policy, and you have the makings of a satisfied customer.

By your questions, are you implying that people shouldn't purchase diamonds from the vendors listed under the "find online jewelry" button at the top of the page? If so, then it sounds like you're questioning the whole idea of Internet commerce. People buy lots of products online sight-unseen. If they don't like what they purchased, they return it.

[denverappraiser]

Jay Gatsby, on Wednesday, Mar 1 2006, 12:55 PM, said:

By your questions, are you implying that people shouldn't purchase diamonds from the vendors listed under the "find online jewelry" button at the top of the page?  If so, then it sounds like you're questioning the whole idea of Internet commerce.  People buy lots of products online sight-unseen.  If they don't like what they purchased, they return it.

Jay,

I don't have a great problem with e-commerce or even with the system of virtual inventory but I do consider the character and policies of the dealer to be an important issue in a diamond purchase. I think the contribution of the dealer to the deal is considerable and that choosing the correct dealer goes a long way to insuring that it will end up a happy experience and that the best deals are not necessarily the ones with the lowest prices. This is true both online and on the street. I think the most satisfied customers choose their dealer first and then the diamond, not the other way around. This is far less true with most other items that people are accustomed to buying online like new books, ink cartridges, branded computer parts or airline tickets and even these can lead to difficulty without due diligence. I’m a very picky customer when I shop and yes, there are vendors listed in ‘find online jeweler’ that I would be very unlikely to do business with.

I think customers are wise to include expert advice about the specific stone they are considering and that a lab grading report is not sufficient for this purpose, not even if it was issued by GIA and not even if it’s 100% accurate. This expert can be a 3rd party advisor working directly for the client, it can be the dealer or it can be both but in all cases it is mandatory that the expert be able to personally inspect the stone.

You didn’t answer my questions. Are you disagreeing?

Neil

[Jay Gatsby]

Alright, I'll answer your questions

1. It depends on what you consider to be part of the buying experience. Grading reports and certifications provide a degree of consisistency. For some, the grading report and certification are enough, while others would want to look at the diamond through a jeweler's loop and/or every diamond-testing scope known to mankind. Thus, I don't know whether the average consumer would consider there to be "more" to buying a diamond.

2. See answer to #1. I don't know what allegedly omitted information the average consumer would consider to be useful. One would think that a certificate from GIA provides some degree of assurance that you're getting a quality product. Would a tenth of a degree in one of the angles make much of a difference to the average consumer? Probably not.

3. It depends on what you consider to be misleading. As has been pointed out on this board, labs grade differently. One certifying body (GIA) appears to rise above the rest in terms of accuracy. Someone buying a stone with a certificate from another entity should be aware of grading differences. Furthermore, I don't know that labs deliberately report specifications inaccurately or intentionally mislead customers. Were this the case, I'd like to think that the market would make its displeasure known and the appropriate governmental enforcement authorities would become involved.

4. Diamond dealers are no different than any other merchants that deal in commoditized merchandise. Some are more honest than others. This is why a no-questions-asked return policy is important.

5. It depends on what you consider to be "desirable" in the mind of the average consumer. What you consider to be undesirable in a stone might make that stone more affordable (and therefore more "desirable") to a particular consumer. Would the stone be less valuable than another? It depends. For example, some people actually like diamonds that have a slight amount of color, while others consider color to be a sign of impurity.

6. The average consumer may or may not consider any or all of the questions you've raised to be important. Some focus on price, others are fixated on the most perfect diamond they can find regardless of whether they could actually see any difference.

[purpleeagle]

The first diamond I bought from an online dealer who got it from a virtual Inventory assured me that it was eye clean. When we got the stone, we saw a crystal in the middle of the stone. We sent it back under the 30-day guarantee at a cost of $25.00. I then shopped at another online dealer. He got the stone; he assured me that it was "eye clean". Fortunately, it was, and we where very happy. I think I shaved $1000 over my local jeweler, and only at a cost of a little time and trouble. I can see everyone's point of view here; I think it just depends on priorities. For me, $1000 extra in the bank was worth the trouble. For others, it isn't. If the 2nd stone came in bad, I would have returned it under the 30-day guarantee and tried again with another dealer.

[barry]

purple;

You were lucky. You could have been on the post office carousel returning stones to the tune of mucho money.

Botom line is that drop-shipping is risky for the consumer and the majority of consumers do not want the hassle of running to the post office with returns.

OTH, if you have a vendor that can call in a diamond for physical inspection, provide
data and photos and serve as the "eyes" for the consumer, then it turns into a win-win situation for both the consumer and our Industry.

[diamondsbylauren]

Feydakin, on Wednesday, Mar 1 2006, 11:50 AM, said:

diamondsbylauren, on Tuesday, Feb 28 2006, 05:38 PM, said:

With all due respect- that's what we do.......

You've never had a customer ask for a diamond that you didn't have?? Ever??

We have a significant investment in loose goods, but still find ourselves sourcing diamonds all the time to fit a specific need that isn't in our vault..

Steve, if the diamond they are asking for is something which goes along with our existing inventory, then we really should have it in stock.
Say a customer asks for a 2.00 Fancy Yellow- that's our main business.
We have it.
We actually have about 4 of them today.
If we did not have one, we'd get it.
If I like it enough to offer to a client, we'd buy it.


You know, this might be part of the issue where rounds and fancy shapes are quite different.

Although I'd never buy a round diamond off a list, the fact is, round is..... well basically, it's round. Not saying being round in itself means a diamond is well cut- but if Barry told me it was a well cut round, there'd be less question as the what the diamond might look like.
No 2 radiants look exactly alike.

[Feydakin]

David, then you do agree with me to some extent.. I said it's not possible for a vendor to stock everything.. You said you did.. But then not really, but you should.. And that was sort of my point.. We all have to look for diamonds elsewhere from time to time.. So I'm not sure where the argument comes from..

We have several fancy yellow stones in stock, but by no means enough to satisfy everyone.. I'd go as far as to say that the yellow we do have in stock is treated almost like demo models of what good yellow looks like in case someone wants to buy one.. But they are rare in our area..

We do stock our primary sellers though, .5ct 1ct etc, things that are ok to have sit in a vault.. The only point I was trying to make is that, again, it's simply not possible for someone to stock everything and that often times we all are required to source out specific stones for specific customers.. I don't have a problem with that.. I'm not sure that at this point I even have a problem with the so called pajama vendors..

The guys that don't own any stones at all but just built a really nice website.. It's capitalism at it's best.. Or worst depending on how you look at it.. The only time it becomes an issue is when customers mix the two types of vendors..

You can't have internet prices and B&M service (there are exceptions but as a generalization this is the case in many, if not most stores).. And customers need to learn to understand that.. Purple is a great example of someone that understands the process.. There is a certain amount of risk when purchasing sight unseen.. But she understood that and was willing to keep trying to get the stone she wanted..

The problem comes in for all of us when customers don't understand the process and make poor choices based on a lack of understanding.. And this leads to unhappy people.. Something that doens't make sense when buying jewelry..

About the round / fancy argument.. That is exactly the case.. There are enough metrics out there for rounds, and a solid enough standard for what 'looks good' that you can make educated assumptions based solely on lab reports and numbers.. You just need to be aware that there is still a possibility that there is a problem..

The best example I ever heard was this

Take 10 women with measurements of 34/28/34.. Take away their clothes and look.. Do they all look the same?? They all have the same measurements don't they?? But I would bet that some look better than others..

Ok, that was sexist, and possibly funny, but I think it makes the point.. Time to get back to work..

[denverappraiser]

Steve,

I'm sure that would be an entertaining experiment but it may be difficult to get participation. You may have to do this based on a virtual listing of just those measurements.

What if the tape measure used to evaluate a few of the women had 1 inch = 55mm while a few were measured with a standard 1 inch = 25.4mm and you don’t know which tape was used with which lady?

Now put their clothes back on, put your eyes back in your head, go into the next room and after you recover from the shock of your first experiment, tell me which lady you think has the best personality based on the data at hand.

Neil

[Feydakin]

We are all beautiful with our eyes closed

But, I think I see your point in there with the loosness of grading.. Some women might have that tape pulled a little tighter to make the numbers work out..

Why do I have a feeling that this thread is about to get me in trouble

[f0rbidden]

i just KNOW i'm supposed to say something about the sexist remarks, and all that, but frankly, i'm sitting here laughing, so it can't be all bad, right?

i especially love the comment about going into the next room and recovering from the shock.

LOL!!!

[barry]

denverappraiser, on Thursday, Mar 2 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

What if the tape measure used to evaluate a few of the women had 1 inch = 55mm while a few were measured with a standard 1 inch = 25.4mm and you don’t know which tape was used with which lady?

Neil

In that case we could use the Aset-Scope for the definitive answer.

[donfenn]

From a buyer's point of view, I think that online availability has helped the shopper. After having looked a bit locally at so called diamond merchants, I have come to the conclusion that in some cases there is not all that much difference between a B&M store and the online virtual inventory.

Let me explain..It seems that very few people stock the type of stones that I am seeking. In this case a 3 carat Emerald. So far, the ones I have seen locally are overpriced EGL's with bad specs. Nobody has more than one or two in actual stock. So, when the buyer asks to see more, the response is that the local dealer will "look around" to see what else is available. Meanwhile, how many of you online dealers have multiple 2.7 to 3 carat emeralds sitting right in front of you at this time? In this case, they are doing the same thing as the online merchant by calling in the stones. Sure, they are local, and you can see the stone, but with a reputable and knowledgable online dealer you should be able to get almost do the same....Of course, they would need to be able to see the stone and offer an opinion, along with making it easy to get an independent appraisal. Of course, if the online dealer is not really screening the stone and giving the buyer his guidance and help as an expert, the buyer should look elsewhere.

[brianknox]

Been a while since I popped in on this thread.

Back to my original comments regarding virtual lists containing many diamonds rejected by stores that buy diamonds for stock.

Many consumers mistakenly think of diamonds as commodities, nothing could be further from reality, especially in the SI range of clarity where many people seem to concentrate their search for a diamond because of the relative values to be found.

The problem is that many, many professionals look at these diamonds and the good diamonds sell fast, the dogs stay on the market (virtual list) until either the price is dropped enough (market forces) or until a less knowledgeable buyer comes along.

look at the attached picture of three 1.00 ct diamonds all graded SI-1 from GIA

It is helpful to think of the clarity grades as a range, and not an exact, precise, quantifiable term.

Within these ranges of clarity there are for example, good SI-1's, bad SI-1's and maybe even the ugly SI-1's. ( this analogy will hold true thru the other clarity ranges as well)

Now, many consumers are going to say ( its that human nature/ego thing) that their SI-1 is one of the better examples.

Which begs the Question:

Then, where do all the ugly ones go?


Brian

Attached Images

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[barry]

Excellent point, Brian. That is why we believe and advocate that if a consumer is interested in a VD diamond, work with a vendor that can call it in and examine it for you.

Will save you hassle and stress.