5 replies to this topic

[MellowCat]

Background info can be found in the link below should you be in a reading sort of mood...


[url="http://www.diamond.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=2185"][url]http://www.diamond.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=2185[/url][/url]

Both appraisals were for the purpose of insurance replacement. The jeweler initially weighed the stone at 1.43 carats. The indy appraiser accepted that weight since the stone was already re-mounted. The center stone was weighed before the jeweler re-mounted it, but both appraisals were done after mounting.

The indepenent ring appraisal I rec'd was $3911.25 higher than the free one given by jeweler that sold me the setting only (not the central diamond).

The color grade was the same on both appraisals.

The clarity rating was VS1 by the indie but SI2 by the jeweler! *my best Blue Collar Voice>>> That's just crazy right there.

The jeweler's appraisal contains no measurements of any kind, nor any plotting of inclusions, or even an explanation of what inclusions it has. It is a one-pager that basically has 2 photos of the ring and one paragaph with the stone count, weight, color and clarity grade. The indie appraisal is 10 pages long.

Naturally, I trust the indie appraisal because the appraisal is comprehensive plus I chose him based upon his independency (doesn't buy or sell jewelry), the lab equipment he possesses and more importantly, his credentials. Of course I want the ring to be the "better" one as well , but how on earth can there be a discrepancy of this magnitude between the two appraisals! Variances are to be expected, but dayum. The jeweler's credentials are unknown. I was simply told they would give me an insurance-replacement appraisal after setting the ring, so why not? Glad I didn't pay for it because I can't see how the jeweler's appraisal contains enough information for a valid insurance replacement value. What do you folks make of this? I'm sure others could benefit from any comments, which are appreciated, btw.

[diamondsbylauren]

Hey Mellow,
Appraisal values are so arbitrary as to be moot.

As far as the difference in clarity grading- wow.
At least the seller "under-graded" and called it Si2.
If it was the other way around, it would look worse for the jeweler.
This way it just looks like someone does not know what they are doing.
maybe the jeweler didin't clean it well enough.
Still if the dedicated appraiser called it VS1, that means they must have examined it pretty well.

In terms of insuring a ring, a 10 page appraisal is not neccesary.
Sure, the more detailed the better- but you can never replace any diamond exactly- so, for replacement insurance the monetary value is key.
I have a feeling that if someone presented an inflated appraisal the insurance company might even allow it- but if they had to replace the item, they would likely NOT pay above market value for it.
SO- in the case of your ring, you actually paid a pirce for it- I can't imagine the jeweler who sold it to you appraisoing it lower than you paid- maybe he used the purchase price?
If so, that's a pretty "honest" appraisal value , if you ask me.



No question , competant professional appraisers offer a valuable service to the public.
It's also possible for sellers to offer detailed identification reports - and to be very clear in describing the diamonds- I'd say sellers of fine diamonds shoud aspire to no less.
So, in some cases, a second opinion may be un-neccesary.

Of course today, a lot of people buy diamonds from people who've never even seen them- giving professional appraisers even more work!

[denverappraiser]

Mellow,

There are lots of reasons that these things can happen and the answer is usually in the fine print of the value definition although there are a variety of other areas that might be looked at. ‘What is this worth?’ can mean remarkably different things to different people, including different appraisers and even with the same appraiser for different assignments. This should be part of what’s discussed in those other 9 pages of the appraisal report and this discussion is part of what makes one appraiser better than another (my reports are usually at least 10 pages long too). In your case, the whole issue is going to be in that clarity grade. Do a quick test. Use the ‘find an online jeweler’ link at the top of this page and search for a diamond with your specs. Make the size range 1.41-1.45 and you’ll get dozens of offers. Look for an SI2 and then look for the same stone only VS1. Notice what it does to the asking prices!

David,

- “so, for replacement insurance the monetary value is key.”

I absolutely disagree with this statement. For replacement insurance, the description is the key. Most insurance policies bind the company to replace with ‘like kind and quality’ and this will be defined by the appraisal submitted by the insured at the time the policy is bound. They are agreeing to meet or exceed the specifications included in the appraisal and the replacement is subjected to a negotiation session with the client and a weak description gives them a tremendous amount of wiggle room. The appraisal should contain everything that you count as valuable about the piece and that you want considered in the replacement. This includes things like optical patterning like hearts and arrows, designer branding, brand of the lab report, brilliancescope results, warranties in effect, etc. If the description specifies an inclusion in the shape of the state of Texas because that’s what’s important to you, the company must either replace with an acceptably Texas shaped inclusion, convince the client to accept something else as alternative or pay out the agreed maximum. The bottom line value is the maximum liability for the company and is used for setting the premium. It is not the expected payout in the case of a loss.

[MellowCat]

Mellow,

There are lots of reasons that these things can happen and the answer is usually in the fine print of the value definition although there are a variety of other areas that might be looked at. ‘What is this worth?’ can mean remarkably different things to different people, including different appraisers and even with the same appraiser for different assignments. This should be part of what’s discussed in those other 9 pages of the appraisal report and this discussion is part of what makes one appraiser better than another (my reports are usually at least 10 pages long too). In your case, the whole issue is going to be in that clarity grade. Do a quick test. Use the ‘find an online jeweler’ link at the top of this page and search for a diamond with your specs. Make the size range 1.41-1.45 and you’ll get dozens of offers. Look for an SI2 and then look for the same stone only VS1. Notice what it does to the asking prices!

**The indie appraiser included very detailed definitions for the valuation process he used.

**I am very aware that the difference in clarity grade is primarily why the prices differ substantially between each appraisal. It still doesn't explain how one appraiser easily found many inclusions while the other found very few. And I also just realized 10 minutes ago that the jeweler's appraisal has the clarity graded as SI1 in the paragraph of the report and SI2 in the "summary" of the report at the bottom! I'm floored!

Incidentally, I have been unable to spot the inclusions plotted by the indie appraiser with up to 36X magnification, FWIW. I know they're in there, I just can't find them!

I am completely cognizant of the fact that I wouldn't be getting a check from an insurer or anyone else for the full appraisal amount; my concern is the clarity disparity at this point. Whatever the case, I love my diamond and the ring I had made with it whether it's an SI1 or FL. I thank you for your comments and welcome any add'l comments. You alone have educated me more than you'll ever know.

BTW, are you still "Colorado Skinny?" (I believe I read that in one of your posts on a different forum )

[denverappraiser]

Mellow,

I notice you've posted the same question elsewhere. It will be interesting to see what others have to comment on about it.

I can't really comment on the grading skills of the various people involved. VS1 and SI2 are, for me, usually pretty easy to tell apart. You mentioned in your original thread that there was a chip in the stone. It doesn't take much of a chip to drop a stone out of VS1. Was this visible to the second appraiser or is it hidden by the new mounting? This could explain the SI1 grade. The SI2 could be simply a typo.

I your very first post you said:
I was told by the jeweler that there was a chip in the diamond. I located it as well in their loupe. It doesn't appear to detract from the beauty; I can't see it w/out magnification. There are definitely inclusions, but when I look thru the loupe, they don't seem very bad to my eyes. Nothing black for sure. Nothing noticeable to the naked eye. How much will this chip devalue the stone, do you think? It doesn't appear to threaten to cause any future damage either, but I'm figuring that's a pretty big blow to its value.

That sounds like a description of an SI1-SI2.

In your last post you said:
Incidentally, I have been unable to spot the inclusions plotted by the indie appraiser with up to 36X magnification, FWIW. I know they're in there, I just can't find them!

that sounds like a description of a VS1.

What changed?

Fortunately, over the internet, my weight is difficult to assess. It's a VS1.

[MellowCat]

Mellow,

I notice you've posted the same question elsewhere. It will be interesting to see what others have to comment on about it.

I thought you would see that.

I can't really comment on the grading skills of the various people involved. VS1 and SI2 are, for me, usually pretty easy to tell apart. You mentioned in your original thread that there was a chip in the stone. It doesn't take much of a chip to drop a stone out of VS1. Was this visible to the second appraiser or is it hidden by the new mounting? This could explain the SI1 grade. The SI2 could be simply a typo.

I agree that the chip logically should automatically reduce the clairity grade or something. I asked the indie appraiser about it and he said it was so minor and could be easily polished out that it was a "non factor." Your pointing this fact out could very well be the difference, now that I think about it.

I your very first post you said:
I was told by the jeweler that there was a chip in the diamond. I located it as well in their loupe. It doesn't appear to detract from the beauty; I can't see it w/out magnification. There are definitely inclusions, but when I look thru the loupe, they don't seem very bad to my eyes. Nothing black for sure. Nothing noticeable to the naked eye. How much will this chip devalue the stone, do you think? It doesn't appear to threaten to cause any future damage either, but I'm figuring that's a pretty big blow to its value.

That sounds like a description of an SI1-SI2.

In your last post you said:
Incidentally, I have been unable to spot the inclusions plotted by the indie appraiser with up to 36X magnification, FWIW. I know they're in there, I just can't find them!

that sounds like a description of a VS1.

What changed?

The "inclusions" I thought I spotted through the loupe were actually dirt. LOL. It was my first look through a loupe so I didn't really know what I was seeing, just assumed the specks were inclusions. But my husband has an old junk microscope that I have since been studying my diamond with and it is amazing what a cleaning will do, as with high magnification I can't see any inclusions, other than the chip and the 2 extra facets the appraiser plotted. It has a natural at the girdle and an included crystal in the crown area near the girdle and a needle in the crown area. As I said, I can't find these inclusions myself, but I'm sure they are there (I trust the appraiser knows what he's seeing and I haven't a clue).

Fortunately, over the internet, my weight is difficult to assess. It's a VS1.

He he. At least you didn't say you were a "Half-Carat Stud."