14 replies to this topic

[funsfamily]

Hi everyone,

I 've been shopping for a diamond ring and went to a jewelry place yesterday. the owner showed me a G VS2 H&A diamond (ideal cut, very good polish and symmetry, no fluroscence, no cutlet, GIA certified). The owner was very professional and taught me on how to look for Heart and Arrow pattern and how to take the measurement of the diamond. The diamond was in fact a H&A under the special microscope(forgot the name for that device) and look very good.

the owner quoted me the diamond and the setting together for a total of $6300 (cash price only). at the end, i did not go for it, because the place do not offer 30 or even 7 days of inspection period and I am afraid that there might be a problem with the diamond.

I searched on the internet today and could not find any deal similar to this one i got. a similar G VS2 diamond i found yesterday could cost me $6500 easy without the setting.

Did I miss a chance big time yesterday??? if so, in case I get a similar offer again next time, what should i be looking at to avoid any disasters. i mean for stores like that one that dont offer any return or exchanges..........it is risky to buy stuffs in there. What are your advises?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this post. Any comments and advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again

funs

[James Allen]

funsfamily,

You forgot to mention the carat weight of the diamond!

[funsfamily]

sorry, the diamond weight around 1.04 carat. thx

[barry]

1. Buying a diamond for this amount of money without a return period to allow you getting an independent appraisal is not recommended. What happens if the appraisal is not to your liking? You're stuck.

2. What other evidence did the vendor provide to you that this was indeed an ideal cut. VG Polish/Symmetry and an H&A pattern is insufficient.

3. Deal with a vendor that gives you at least a 7-day return period.

BTW, it's culet, not cutlet.

[denverappraiser]

I agree with Barry.

No Refunds = No Sale

There are plenty of good dealers out there who have more reasonable policies. You should have the right to show it to an appraiser, your know-it-all brother in law or your astrologer and get a full refund if it doesn't measure up to your every expectation. No restocking fees. No restrictions on what is an acceptable reason for wanting to make the return.

If you remove the H&A spec from your list, it's an easy budget to meet. This means that you're paying a pretty good premium to get the H&A pattern. I'm curious what the jeweler taught you about recognizing the pattern in the scope. Do you remember any of the details?

Neil Beaty

[barry]

denverappraiser, on Friday, Sep 23 2005, 09:33 PM, said:

I agree with Barry.

In the immortal words of Mel Allen: "Howa bout that!!

[funsfamily]

thx barry, neil and james,

i am such a newbie on diamonds, so any info from the jeweler would be consider valuable. basically, he taught and showed me how to recognize true Heart and Arrow pattern. He showed me a few different diamonds, one with and two without Heart and Arrow (or partial H&A diamond), and told me that diamonds need to have perfect 8 hearts and 8 Arrows to be consider real H&A. that' s basically it and that diamond was indeed H&A.

from what i have learned over these past few weeks reading stuffs from the web, H&A means "IDEAL CUT", Am I correct? if not, what other ways could u tell whether the diamond is ideal cut or not??

also, question on appraiser, what are the chances that the diamond would get swap by them? Should I be present at the site at that time? should I pick my own appraiser? or let the online vendor to pick their buddy appraiser? Can you guys recommend some good appraiser in New York City area?

thank you very very vvery much

funs

[barry]

H&A does not necessarily mean "Ideal Cut" and "ideal Cut may not have the greatest H&A pattern.

Two excellent Independent Appraisers of high integrity in New York are David Wolfe and Justin Krall.

Yes, you can sit there and have them do the appraisal right in front of you.

[denverappraiser]

The only lab that really grades the Hearts & Arrows is the Central lab in Japan and their rules are quite complex. It’s a difficult standard for the cutters to meet. It includes, for example, rules on the width of the arrow shafts and the shape and matching of the clefts of the hearts. If you didn’t get into this sort of detail, it’s unlikely that the purists would agree that your stone shows the pattern. I suspect this because the cutters that go through the trouble to get it right, charge extra because of it and your salesperson would have been eager to point it out. Not this is such a bad thing, just if you are paying a premium for H&A, you should get it.

‘Ideal’ is a term used by the American Gem Society to describe a particular set of parameters. They just changed the rules a little bit but it’s still based on the angles of some of the facets. You or your dealer can get most of this information from a Sarin report. This is a tool for measuring exactly these angles. There are other people who use this term in different ways. Most are less precise. If anyone uses the term with you, ask him or her what they mean. If they say something like ‘perfect’ or ‘best’ and leave it at that, it means that they didn’t understand the question, they don’t know the answer, or they didn’t want to tell you about it. Either way, I wouldn’t put much emphasis on the claim.

Hearts &Arrows are patterns seen in the reflections within a stone when it’s viewed through a special scope that is manufactured for this purpose. It’s a good indicator of precision cutting and good symmetry. H&A stones have a look that has become quite popular. Personally, I like it but it’s definitely not the only set of specifications that results in a lovely stone. Most round H&A stones are cut to AGS ideal proportions but it’s not really required. On the other hand, it’s quite common to see Ideal cut stones that don’t show the pattern. This is, in fact, the case with most AGS Ideal stones.

Your risk of having a stone switched by a jeweler or appraiser is quite low but for clients looking to appraise a single item (or even a few items), it’s usually convenient to sit and wait anyway. Most good appraisers are accustomed to this request. And are happy to accommodate you. This also gives you the opportunity to ask any specific questions you may have about either the stone or the deal. Yes, you should choose your own appraiser. You’re looking for a 3rd party opinion, not additional sales material. You obviously know this by the way you phrased the question.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

[jan]

A diamond with a very good polish and symmetry will run less than a stone with Excellent polish and symmetry. Also what were the table, total depth, crown angle and pavilion angle. That will tell us if it really has ideal proportions or not. It's possible to see a hearts and arrows pattern if it isn't ideal cut. Also just because a stone is ideal cut and hearts and arrows doesn't always mean it will have a high light performance. Each and every diamond is individual. Even some of the branded hearts and arrows ideal diamonds don't always perform that well. For more info on light performance go to:

www.gemex.com
www.isee2.com

[barry]

Here is an example of a H&A EX-EX Ideal Cut round brilliant diamond with mediocre light performance as measured by the Brilliancescope.

"Numbers" and External symmetry do not give you the whole picture and information and do not guarantee that you are getting a top-light performing diamond.

Attached Images

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[funsfamily]

thx for the reply.

I m about to decide which diamond to pick, so more questions ...........

my question is does it mean that it's better to shop online vesus going in person??
since one can ask for all the sarin and certification info...etc.


also, how good is the Holloway Cut Adviser? i was told to get the sarin data and then run the HCA to see how good the diamond is.


last question, forget about color clarity and fluoscence, if the diamond is ideal cut (according to the vendor's site), symmetry and polish are excellent, no culet, and the HCA shows it as excellent as well, does it means "it's a keeper"?? or there are more stuffs to look into??

thank you very much

[barry]

Shopping on-line with a reputable vendor that can provide you with comprehensive reports and photo's and examine the diamond because it is in-house is as good as shopping in a B&M.

The HCA is a rejection tool, not a pick diamond tool. This, from the author of the HCA.
Keep in mind that it evaluates only 17 of the 58 facets of the round diamond. This partial analysis is insufficient to give you an accurate assessment.

Not necessarily. See the example I posted above. That stone has a HCA of .4 but displays mediocre light performance. Is that what you want to put on her finger?

[denverappraiser]

my question is does it mean that it's better to shop online vesus going in person??
since one can ask for all the sarin and certification info...etc.
Are you finding the local stores are better than the online dealers about providing technical information or the reverse? Quality dealers both online and on the street should be both willing and able to answer your questions. This is not a function of the location of their showroom or the quality of their website. It's about the quality of the dealer. Many of the online dealers are more accustomed to this sort of request but any dealer should be able to accomidate you. By all means choose someone who can and will provide you with the kind of information that you find helpful in your shopping decision.


also, how good is the Holloway Cut Adviser?
I rarely use it. Customers seem to find it helpful in separating out probable dogs but it's not especially helpful for sorting the best stones.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

[barry]

I agree with Neil