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2.2-2.4Ct Diamond Parameter Advice


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#1 Footballguy188

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:46 PM

Hi all,

I am working with a jeweler referred to me by a friend who has used multiple times and referred to many. He lives in a different state, and we are working with diamond wholesalers in Chicago and New York.

I have done quite a bit of reading and discussing with him on what I am looking for and we have come to the following conclusion....

2.2-2.4 ct GIA certified round
Excellent cut
H color
Ex-VG polish
Ex symmetry
No fluorescence
SI2 (clean verified in person by someone jeweler trusts in Chi)
Set in a basic gold setting princess I believe is what it's called

My questions are...
1- it seems as though from a general consensus of forums, H is a safe bet. Is it a safe bet for this size diamond? I don't want to go lower to I, but is there a noticeable difference between G and H or am I ok saving a few bucks here with going with an H.

2. SI 2, if it is clean is there a noticeable difference between other grades? It seems as those this area should be the least of my concerns as long as it's clean..

3. Verification and payment on my end. I trust this guy, and trust who referred me. However with an investment like this I would like to be sure. Any suggestions on how to verify the stone once received? Also any suggestions on payment- is there a way to put in escrow and when I see the stone, have te paymentt released to him?

4. What is a ballpark estimate to pay for a stone like this? (I see his wholesaler cost and he charges what his price is plus 10% not suggested retail)...

Thanks for your help in advance! I will post the diamond I am looking at prior to purchasing for review...

#2 davidelevi

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:02 AM

1. It depends. People's sensitivity to colour is very variable, and what some people see as definitely tinged others see as perfectly white. With a larger stone, angle of observation and setting also have a (more) significant impact. Finally, bear in mind that there are H that are "almost G" and H that are "almost I" - this is also going to be reflected in the price.

 

For me personally, H in a 2.something stone is where I start seeing some colour, but if it's well cut it will face up white. The point here is that you (even better: she) need to see a few G, H and I stones in roughly that size and figure out what you can/cannot see and what you like.

 

2. See 1. Pretty much the same observations apply.

 

3. Make sure you can bring back the stone for a full refund (give or take credit card commissions and/or shipping costs: these are real, and not refundable for the seller either!) for at least a week; ideally 30 days. Find a qualified, expert appraiser and get him/her to see the stone and give you his/her opinion. Identifying an SI2 from inclusions should not be difficult either - you can learn to do this yourself, but with $15k + on the table I'd want someone I definitely trust to see the stone (this can be the jeweller, BTW, but you don't seem to be at that level of trust with him at this point).

 

Escrow is possible, but it depends on both parties agreeing to it, and generally escrow service providers charge you for the privilege. It's much easier (and cheaper) to agree with the seller what the return conditions, to put those in writing and to use a credit card for payment.

 

Side note: never, ever look at this diamond as an investment. If 2 months or 50 years down the line you can resell it and get some (or even all, or even more than you paid) money back, count it as a bonus, but it's not something on which to base decisions. Buy it because you like it, buy it because she likes it - ideally buy it because both of you like it.

 

4. His "wholesaler" cost is frankly irrelevant (and how are you going to know what it is? The industry is based on wheeling and dealing, and there are plenty of ways in which his real cost is going to be lower than what is on the invoice - never mind what appears on a listing engine screen). A fair price depends on quite a few things, mainly:

 

a. stone characteristics: visibility and aesthetic impact of inclusions, details of cut, size (2.20 to 2.40 is 10%... which can mean a couple of thousand dollars!), colour, tint (brown vs. yellow vs. grey) and not least transparency. Looking at the database here, you find a very broad range between $23k and $14k, which with an SI2 is largely due to the inclusions: http://www.diamondre...fLabAGS=1&adv=1

 

b. seller characteristics. Someone who has no stock and deals purely as an internet based broker has much lower costs than someone that has a large shop in a prominent location with a lot of inventory and staff. Dealers that provide you with lots and lots of information about stones (photos, videos, reflector images, 3D scanner results) have higher costs - and prices - than people selling purely on the basis of a lab report. And so on.

 

This means the "real" range of fair prices is even wider than what's on the database here (these are all fairly aggressive internet-based retailers) - and being asked $30k for a 2.40 H/SI2 is not impossible. As is being asked less than $10k for something without a GIA/AGS report (and likely an I1...).

 

One last point - it may just be you not remembering or misinterpreting, but I never heard of a "princess setting". However, I have heard of princess cut stones, and they are definitely something very different from rounds (they have corners, to start with...) so make sure you are not getting one of those if you want a round.


Edited by davidelevi, 16 February 2017 - 04:08 AM.

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#3 Furqan Shafi

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:21 AM

1. It depends. People's sensitivity to colour is very variable, and what some people see as definitely tinged others see as perfectly white. With a larger stone, angle of observation and setting also have a (more) significant impact. Finally, bear in mind that there are H that are "almost G" and H that are "almost I" - this is also going to be reflected in the price.

 

For me personally, H in a 2.something stone is where I start seeing some colour, but if it's well cut it will face up white. The point here is that you (even better: she) need to see a few G, H and I stones in roughly that size and figure out what you can/cannot see and what you like.

 

2. See 1. Pretty much the same observations apply.

 

3. Make sure you can bring back the stone for a full refund (give or take credit card commissions and/or shipping costs: these are real, and not refundable for the seller either!) for at least a week; ideally 30 days. Find a qualified, expert appraiser and get him/her to see the stone and give you his/her opinion. Identifying an SI2 from inclusions should not be difficult either - you can learn to do this yourself, but with $15k + on the table I'd want someone I definitely trust to see the stone (this can be the jeweller, BTW, but you don't seem to be at that level of trust with him at this point).

 

Escrow is possible, but it depends on both parties agreeing to it, and generally escrow service providers charge you for the privilege. It's much easier (and cheaper) to agree with the seller what the return conditions, to put those in writing and to use a credit card for payment.

 

Side note: never, ever look at this diamond as an investment. If 2 months or 50 years down the line you can resell it and get some (or even all, or even more than you paid) money back, count it as a bonus, but it's not something on which to base decisions. Buy it because you like it, buy it because she likes it - ideally buy it because both of you like it.

 

4. His "wholesaler" cost is frankly irrelevant (and how are you going to know what it is? The industry is based on wheeling and dealing, and there are plenty of ways in which his real cost is going to be lower than what is on the invoice - never mind what appears on a listing engine screen). A fair price depends on quite a few things, mainly:

 

a. stone characteristics: visibility and aesthetic impact of inclusions, details of cut, size (2.20 to 2.40 is 10%... which can mean a couple of thousand dollars!), colour, tint (brown vs. yellow vs. grey) and not least transparency. Looking at the database here, you find a very broad range between $23k and $14k, which with an SI2 is largely due to the inclusions: http://www.diamondre...fLabAGS=1&adv=1

 

b. seller characteristics. Someone who has no stock and deals purely as an internet based broker has much lower costs than someone that has a large shop in a prominent location with a lot of inventory and staff. Dealers that provide you with lots and lots of information about stones (photos, videos, reflector images, 3D scanner results) have higher costs - and prices - than people selling purely on the basis of a lab report. And so on.

 

This means the "real" range of fair prices is even wider than what's on the database here (these are all fairly aggressive internet-based retailers) - and being asked $30k for a 2.40 H/SI2 is not impossible. As is being asked less than $10k for something without a GIA/AGS report (and likely an I1...).

 

One last point - it may just be you not remembering or misinterpreting, but I never heard of a "princess setting". However, I have heard of princess cut stones, and they are definitely something very different from rounds (they have corners, to start with...) so make sure you are not getting one of those if you want a round.

 

Couldn't have put better my self. 


Swanstar Diamonds.
http://www.swanstar.com.au
Melbourne, Australia.


#4 Footballguy188

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:14 AM

Wow, thank you very much for the detailed response. I think it would be prudent for me to look at some similar size stones in the GHI range to see what we see!

Thanks! I will still post a picture of the diamond i am looking at for review

#5 davidelevi

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:25 PM

You are most welcome. Let us know what happens, and if you have more questions (in addition to an opinion on whatever stones you end up considering), post away!


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#6 LaurentGeorge

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:13 AM

Sorry to be a little late to the party, but I will differ with Davide on only one point:  #2  SI2:  Although they do exist, eye clean SI2 stones in that size range are becoming very rare and hard to find.  I would venture to say that about 30% of SI1 stones in the 2ct+ range have eye visible imperfections and that % is substantially higher for SI2.  Which leads us directly to point #3; make certain you can get your money back (not just store credit) if you are not satisfied.

 

Good luck.


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#7 davidelevi

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:45 PM

I don't think we differ at all on this, Laurent. I was just trying to say that "eye clean" (like "white") is a largely subjective definition and particularly with SI2 the only way of knowing is to see the stone (or to have someone trusted seeing it). Which as you rightly say brings us to return policies and all that.

 

I think I understand why my post could be interpreted in a different way: "H in a 2.something stone is where I start seeing some colour" => "SI2 in a 2.something stone is where I start seeing some inclusions", but that was not where I intended to draw similarities. As you say, there are a fair few SI1 with well visible inclusions, and way more SI2 with that in the 2+ carat range.

 

Apologies for any confusion/lack of clarity.


Edited by davidelevi, 20 February 2017 - 01:48 PM.

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#8 Footballguy188

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 03:49 PM

so I have found a beautiful diamond (in person through this jewlers reference). I would like to get the diamond appraised before spending 20k on the diamond, especially if I am paying cash. The jeweler is willing to do so before he sets diamond. 

 

However, the diamond dealer here locally isn't making much off the deal as he is a friend of the remote guy I was talking to and broker fees are going to him. The local guy does not want to give me a reciept (paying cash). Is this something I should not do? He said he isn't going to set a 20k stone then write a reciept as there is a 1/1000000 chance whenever you set a diamond it could be damaged. And he isn't making enough money on the deal to risk that loss.

 

 

Curious as to your thoughts as i am getting down to the wire on this..

 

thanks,

 

 



#9 davidelevi

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 04:09 PM

Um. I'm confused. He doesn't want to write a receipt because... the diamond might get damaged during setting? Is he setting it? And he refuses to take responsibility for that? Or are there 3 (4) parties involved:

 

1. The owner of the diamond

2. Your friend - who is a broker

3. The jeweller who will set the stone

4. Yourself?

 

In any case, I would say that you have two issues:

 

a. Is the diamond fine? This is something that you need to sort out prior to setting, and you need to agree with 1. and 2. what happens if you (or the appraiser, or your astrologer, or your pet chinchilla) do not like it. Cash payment, cash refund? Within 1, 5, 20, 50 days? 100% money back? 50% money back? "Store credit" only?

 

Independent of whether he issues an invoice or receipt (and thus pays income tax on the profit) or not, you need to make sure that conditions for return are clearly agreed - especially if you pay cash (and therefore don't have a credit card company to fight part of your battle if things go pear-shaped).

 

b. Who takes responsibility for any damages or losses during setting. This is normally 3, but if you aren't going to buy the stone from them, they may be unwilling to play that role. If so, how are you going to cover this? Sometimes insurance companies are quite skittish about insuring loose stones.

 

Maybe it's a wonderful stone and a very fair price, but it starts becoming complicated...


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#10 Footballguy188

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 05:12 PM

Sorry I will clarify

Minnesota (I'll call him Minnesota)is the guy I started discussing with and we were looking at stones through chi. However I felt I needed to see the stones. So Minnesota has a colleague and friend of 30 years who they roomed together going through GIA certs in LA (I'll call him LA)..

So Minnesota set up a meeting between LA and myself where he showed me many stones and I decided on 2.2H.

The plan is to head down have stone set, take to lab to verify stone then exchange $ and be done..he doesn't want to give receipt however. does that sound like a good plan?

#11 denverappraiser

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 05:43 PM

Several red flags here.

 

1) Liability.  Most 3rd and 4th party deals don’t assume breakage liability on a stone, damage to the setting, craftsmanship problems or really anything else.  Normally they DO if the setter is the same as the seller.  The risk of breakage is indeed low, but it’s not THAT low and it has a lot to do with the skill of the setter.  That should give you pause.  It is possible for you to get insurance that will cover this but it’s a bit of a pain and it involves using an appraiser who understands what’s going on, and who is not the setter.  You’re missing on both counts.  FWIW, insuring against this will cost you about $300. 

 

2) The point of no-paper cash deals is usually tax evasion, not liability control. Lack of paperwork doesn't have anything to do with who is responsible for what in sorts of risks. 

 

3) I’d be willing to bet the jeweler is getting a commission here.  I don’t even have a problem with that, and you shouldn't either.  He/she earned it.  That said, the ‘independence’ of this appraisal is a bit suspect and I wouldn't put much stake in their value and possibly other conclusions.  That’s ok too, but what are you hoping to learn from this?  I presume by the cash no-paper thing, this is also a no refund for any reason deal.  Why are you getting it 'appraised'?  Are they even doing an appraisal, or is this a matter of stone matching to the lab paperwork?

 

4) Here's 41 comps for 2.20+/H/SI2/GIA/x that are under your budget, some by quite a bit.  Every one of them has better terms and conditions than that.  I'm a big fan of supporting local stores and even paying a bit extra to do it, but they're doing you no favors here. This is a business deal. It's not even clear to me who you're doing business with but it's clearly not your neighborhood jeweler or even the guy you're talking to. Who was whose roommate in college has NOTHING to do with it.  

http://www.diamondre...20000&fLabGIA=1


Edited by denverappraiser, 24 February 2017 - 07:10 AM.

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